A Neues Orientations Insel (Verzeihe mich, Ich hab nur ein Englisher version gefunden)

Neovo Geesink
Neovo Geesink
 Member Moderator in Announcements
Ab Jetzt ist eine Orientations Insel (Orientation Island) am Metro gedockt.

Er ist für Neulinge, und Jede welche der Basic Wissenshaft über der Avatar und der möglichkeiten In-Welt erneut Lernen willst.

Es ist wie der MD-Style Orientations Inseln der einmal war am Second Life.

Es hat eben Baufähigkeiten um alles zu testen, und möglicherweise wirden sachen noch hinzu gefügt.

Vielleicht macht dass etwas Spass.

Neovo Geesink.


  • Eryn Galen
    Eryn Galen
    Hallo Neovo,
    erinnerst du dich an mein Helpbook mit den Basissachen für Opensim wie Kamera, Laufen, etc? Ich kannn das wenn gewünscht als Reihe von Postern zum Durchlaufen beisteuern.
  • Neovo Geesink
    Neovo Geesink
     Member Moderator
    Dass wäre Toll sein. :-)
    Dann kann ich dass im Orientations Insel schaffen in statt der Englischer Version.

  • josjoha
     Member edited August 2019

    Perhaps Metro (and all opensim grids ?) need something like the Blake sea and Continents with gathering points (telehubs?) such as SL has. At least i was thinking a bit about the Metro popularity (drop), this article: https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2011/05/second-life-vs-opensim/ which seems to say that opensim generally lacks content, and my own experience with Metro (when I first came I found that there was almost nowhere to go, nowhere similar enough to my taste to stay, the search system didn't work and free land that was offered privately was so bad in its service continuity that it was a useless investment, and so I left for many years again until I now make my own sim; I also found it problematic that there was no indication of what land on the world map was online and what was not, making the world map by itself useless as a traveling system because of all the stale map tiles.)

    It may not be desirable to make metro-grid fit for content creators who want a closed system (as the mentioned article notes), however it may help new users not just to have an avatar, but to have a place to go to that is inviting. SL solved this with their continents and seas. OSgrid has LBSA (which is a very well implemented vision of the inside of a computer ?), and Metro-grid has something like an adapted radio tube tower, with a few sims around it that do not compare to something like the general Blake sea and wider areas in SL. I would think that if you enter some new grid as a new avatar there, you would prefer to be on some kind of inviting neutral space owned by the grid, rather than hang out in someone else's living room private sim (at least I).

    I could draw something right now and propose it (already had plugged in my drawing tablet haha ...), maybe 4x4 km large, but maybe it is a better idea to first ponder the idea. One thing that comes to mind is: once it is fit for airplanes and boats, we might draw in those people who do that by themselves or with one or two others from their own parcel they can rent on the water edge. Once we have those people, people attract people. Even if it attracts nobody, to have places like the large ski area in SL, there is a free and neutral place to hang out for new avatars, which has a reliable uptime, and within which could be lots of parcels for someone to begin and call their virtual home. The whole area should have a minimum quality standard. I would think it is quite easy to find out what people probably find most appealing (besides their dungeons and dance garages): type in "vacation destination" in a search engine, and inspect the pictures. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=vacation+destination&t=ffnt&iax=images&ia=images

    A welcome island, if done friendly and cozy enough, could be snuggly situated somewhere on this island/continent/sea area, and include the center regions of metropolis too. You have to invest before you get something back ? Maybe there is enough funds for something like this ?

  • Eryn Galen
    Eryn Galen
     Member edited August 2019
    Hi jojosha,
    all good ideas, although I do not think them quite workable for Metro, since I feel that the lack is not so much in the content, but in the finding of it and the helping of new people - which both involves the human resource factor: people willing to help nad give pointers. Having well thought out regions is nevertheless empty of people regions (people meaning any avatar, not just human looking ones).
    I agree that LBSA Plaza does work very well for people gathering or even newbies, but then it was designed more as a social spot that everything else kind of was worked into. And nowadays you do not land there anyway when you log into OSgrid for the very first time, you land somewhere similar to an orientation island.
    I also think that now that we have huge landmasses to play with, we tend to go all out and that could be very overwhelming for someone new to OpenSim. So personally I would prefer "small and cozy" to "has it all" ;-)
    Just my 2 cents.

    @Neovo Geesink Let's get together online sometime ans see how the hlepbook would best be implemented, ok?
    Thanked by: Pius Noel
  • josjoha
     Member edited August 2019
    Hello Eryn,

    Thanks for your reply. It is always difficult to predict what people want exactly (it seems to me), so it could be that once we have a very nice big sea and continents with parcels for free / cheap and spend loads of effort making it, that nobody ever will even end up being there or go sailing / flying around in an airplane. On the other hand, maybe some would like it and it might be  a succes, right ? If it was made beautiful enough and sim performance was ok. Personally I do not think the size would be overwhelming to me, but rather nice and big to disappear in.

    You mention that there is content enough in metro-grid, however to my knowledge there are no grid owned and administered (meaning very stable with accessible help) things like Continents with parcels and seas plus build up sea bed. If it does not exist, or only in a private user owned way, I think it becomes harder for a new user - who does not want to have his/her own simulator (yet) - to establish themselves. Where would they go ? Can they rent a small spot somewhere, and not have to create a friendship with someone private they happen to meet who has his own rental project that might disappear without a trace any moment ? Maybe there is but then I couldn't find it yet ;-). I think it would lower the bar for new people or even people who know everything but just like a small place to put a few things in. I certainly wouldn't dare predict if it would work or not, though.

    I remember once having my tiny first parcel on an SL mainland Continent, which made it more interesting because you where somewhere. Other people might prefer a skybox. Different people do/want different things I guess. Maybe it would therefore be wise to offer at least a little bit of everything ?

    It seems we agree that the finding of places in metro could be better. Maybe one day the search system and map will work. A lot of people use the Opensim-World beacon to travel around, but in the 'popularity' HUD section this now requires 2 persons to be there, and of course a new user would have to know about this HUD and how it works. I noticed in Party-grid that they had quite a big wall with textures that teleported persons to some sim. Maybe it is an idea that every metro connected sim owner could control such a tile box to put a texture / LM on it. Then the maintenance would be with the sim owners. Maybe if that had categories, people could just look at their own category of things and it could run itself sortof.

    P.S. I was poking a little bit of fun at LBSA because it is not much like any vacation destination either by design, but it is true that it is a well polished build and it seems to work that there are often people hanging out. Perhaps a design with seating around a small square is helpful too. It likely has the effect that it draws people together.
  • Mareta Dagostino
    Mareta Dagostino
     Member edited August 2019
    Well, difficult theme for Sunday evening... :pensive:  Some thoughts I would like to attend.

    1) We have really large public sandbox space and the grid offers administered performant regions for reasonable fees. Yes, they are not cheapest, but customers get good service and performant regions and also the admins get some extra money for the grid. What lacks are smaller land parcels like Mainland parcels in SL. (But is there demand? In Dereos we have one region with 9 separate parcels for rent and only three of them are rented. And nearly all regions are rented there, they have very few self hosted regions.)

    2) There is reserved space (distance of 3 standard regions) around *CenterWorld*. Probably the admins could set up water regions instead of nothing for the actually not used coordinates. But setting up interesting content like Islands and so on, we would need e crew of engaged Residents like the "Moles" in SL.

    3) To create a continent we would need coordinates on the map with stricter constraints. For example regions in this continent should be forced to let their server online. No temporary home server, and if a region is away 24 hous the inworld map would be wiped. (I would suggest a one month lock of the coordinate, may be the owner is in vacation when the server crashes.)

    4) I like neighbours. But as I had several times Neighbours for only a few weeks or months, leaving an ugly ghost tile next to my region instead of water, now I have set up reservation around my regions. I would unreserve a coordinate after speaking with the potential Neighbor, of course. A neighbour's terraforming should fit to my regions (meaning the edges) and the neighbour's region should be online most time. And if they leave, I would wish that on the map is water again.

    5) The linked article of Hypergridbusiness is old and several mentioned things are obsolete now, meaning grid names, currencies and the idea of creators' commercial activities. Also the stability discussion is obsolete as we now have totally other problems (partly broken Hypergrid for example).

    6) We have too many party locations, I won't believe that another additional meeting point would attract more people. We have plenty party locations to meet, plenty well constructed regions to visit. Also with *Metropolis* and *Centerworld* (incl. some surrounding) we have several meeting rooms. But we lack of community. There is no crowd who wants to meet in these several places already existing. And there is no communication to prepare the meetings, for example here in the forum or on other public places in the internet.

    So my opinion: Setting up more regions would not solve the problem. Organise us to build a vivid "continent" (surely in most cases islands with water surrounding) could result in something like "blake sea". But do you remind the Parliament idea years ago? No one, really no one had any community problem to bring up, and to prepare in public internet. I'm told that there are several closed groups in "social" media, but I cannot say what's going up there because no one writes in bulletin boards nowadays.
    Thanked by: Pius Noel
  • josjoha
     Member edited August 2019

    Thank you Mareta for your detailed reply. I think my main arguments would (still) be: a) Different people want different things, the more is on offer that has a provable market or not even that, the more people you can attract. b) For new users things should be as simple / cheap as possible.

    a) If "we" do not offer certain content, those needing it will not be there to complaign about it because they have already left. For example: I left because there was no place I could set up easily and I was not going to even think of having my own region. A quarter sim would have been more than enough. Hence I was not there anymore to ask for it. I also didn't tell anyone else "come to Metro, you can get easy parcels here, for free/cheap," so "the word" was not spreading because it wasn't there to begin with.

    Different people want different things. If you offer 2 tastes of icecream, vanilla and strawberry at your icecream shop, you can still have costumers for ice, and after a while almost nobody is asking for chocolate, banana or any other flavor because those wanting such have long found another place to get it. Then you can say: nobody is asking for it, and everyone who comes here only wants vanilla and strawberry. That however is not logic. The better way to look at it is: wait a minute, over there is an icecream shop with 10 flavors, and they all sell quite a bit. Then you know there is a market, and that you are not in it and thus miss out on those costumers. It is not an if this than not that question, it is quite possible to offer a lot of different things.Is there a market for smaller parcels ? I think the answer is obviously yes, because SL is full of it. Premium SL users have standard a home, which again shows that people want a small part for themselves. SL wouldn't be doing it, if in the final equation that costs them money. It serves a need. Notice how in SL those tele-hub things are always crowded like crazy. That is also public "neutral" ground, owned by SL. It is always there, it does not change.

    b) You would want your new people to get adjusted as slowly and comfortably as possible, because any odd problem can make them jump away to any other offer. A help island to help people learn moving and building is similar to offering small/cheap parcels for their first homes. To ask a new user to download the opensim server software and run their own sim, or to rent an entire region when they do not even know what a box prim is or how to fly, is likely going to be such a big step that they will just never take it and then they are potentially gone.

    I'll try to address your points, to the degree i haven't yet:

    1) Openim is likely the second virtual world people discover, after SL, which means many are not novice users anymore and may want to rent bigger lands or host their own. That is in my opinion all the more reason to at least offer the possibility of an easy entry for new users, because we are missing out on those fresh new users if we don't make it easy for them. It can take many years before enough free users show up, or until it gets known wider afield (read: in SL) that Metro is a good place to start too, so that people might get their friends from there into metro-grid. One can even think of people renting a parcel only for a year or so, until they realize they want a region, and for that reason the parcels might always remain a small section of all rentals. However it would have done its job, just as people are not likely going to hang around the help island forever.

    2) This plan would need people who are able to make decent looking space, perhaps not unlike Linden public space (but better, because we now have mesh). Notice how Linden public spaces are almost all empty as well, yet it is still there. Again I would argue: they leave it on because it has a function. It is sort of a neutral space to hang out, or do some sailing/flying.

    3) I would suggest: not a single privately run server at all, because it is just not reliable enough. Those could huddle in a second Continent maybe, or accross the sea. In my idea I would see just a large natural space, Continent-island, within which here or there groups of parcels as if it was villages. Not like a region that is cut up in squares, because that makes everything so unstable again, like with your neighbor problem. A bit of a public neutrality buffer around everything.

    5) I guess I see it differently, many of the same problems still seem to exist that are mentioned ? Most people seem to be in SL, because most people are in SL. It is just so much bigger (and easier to get in to ?). This is strange however, because SL is way expensive. Opensim must be doing something wrong, whatever it is, not to be able to capitalize (yet) on it being so vastly much cheaper. I don't know what it might be, but it could among other reasons be that it is too difficult for new users to find reliable space and neutral hangout areas, seas/skies.

    6) I agree that there seems not to be many gatherings of avis going on generally (??), and this is possibly due to the small total population. Which again might be helped if we make it easier on new people / the casual user. You end up comparing the existing spaces to what I was suggesting, but it is not the same thing. There is a large sandbox which is nice for those who need it, but it is not an inspiring place to hang out as such (it is a flat sand texture). We have the center world regions with the parliament building, but it would need a lot of work and maybe some nearby regions to fill in a bit of the city with shops and park to make it look something nice ?

    We have loads and loads of land mass (I contribute also 3 square kilometer to that), but it is specialized and private, it may be role-play, etc. Why are there so many private lands in SL that are very nice but empty, but loads and loads of people hang out in the public SL telehubs ? Even if we do not know why, we can replicate the same. Reasons I can imagine are: they are new users, they like to go to a neutral space owned by the grid itself. The grid itself is never going to boot them or get angry at them for loitering there, unlike you never know who or what with a private anonymous sim owner you never met or even want to meet.

    Your last point was that nobody brought up the problem. My point would be: those who had the problem already left (which I can attest to, because I did just that back then). My last point would be: cost/benefit balance. If it seems it could have some use, how much money / work would it take to make it, or at least enter this element on the metrop map as a small but existing kernel. I imagine one may have to keep this new land online for many years and accept - just like a help-island, which in a sense it would be - that it is not crowded all the time.

    How big, how detailed and how expertly done would it need to be for it to fulfill minimally at its function ? If "we" where to replicate the 9 parcel offer of the grid you mentioned, and if I compare that to my own main island on a 4x4 var, i think it would easily fit on one 4x4 var region. I have 5 houses with each additionally 6000 m² "work" land on the main island, community centers, boats, a school, more islands, stuff. One 4x4 var above it is a sand box, which also provides more flying/boating space. So I think we would have enough with one 4x4 var region to do something in this direction (16 standard regions) ?
  • josjoha
     Member edited August 2019

    You are both saying, which seems to be their final negative remark on the matter "there is enough space." In a way that is precisely the problem. If we have so much space, then why isn't it working as good or better as SL ? What is wrong with this vast amount of space we have ?

    1. It is not public (grid), but privately owned.
    2. The quality of the little public land that there is, is not the best.
    3. There is no reliable place to rent parcels in a variety of sizes, easily and cheaply to get started.

    You are also sidestepping the argument. The argument was never that there was a shortage of space as such, or a shortage of party rooms. The argument is that the quality of the land is perhaps not the right one for a large amount of (new) users.

    You could convert the center sim with this tower device into a nice 4x4 var island / set of islands with villages and starter parcels, and it would not even cost a new sim ? If the same was done with the parliament sim (which seems to need a lot of work in any case), it would be a fair amount of public space (and work to do, hehe).
  • Mareta Dagostino
    Mareta Dagostino
     Member edited August 2019
    Well, one point of my remark you missed though:
    2) ... But setting up interesting content like Islands and so on, we would need e crew of engaged Residents like the "Moles" in SL.
    So my opinion: Setting up more regions would not solve the problem. Organise us to build a vivid "continent" (surely in most cases islands with water surrounding) could result in something like "blake sea". But do you remind the Parliament idea years ago? No one, really no one had any community problem to bring up, and to prepare in public internet. I'm told that there are several closed groups in "social" media, but I cannot say what's going up there because no one writes in bulletin boards nowadays.
    Actually I see no crowd of residents who would create all these nice public regions with all that high quality content. Also I don't see any public discussion place in the web, where a community of "Moles" could plan and coordinate such programs. If you take a look into this forum: The majority of content is either announcements or support questions. This is not a technical problem which could be solved by grid admins, it is a community problem.
    josjoha schrieb:
    ... You could convert the center sim with this tower device into a nice 4x4 var island / set of islands with villages and starter parcels, and it would not even cost a new sim? If the same was done with the parliament sim (which seems to need a lot of work in any case), it would be a fair amount of public space (and work to do, hehe).
    Well, who is "you"? I think donating some server capacity for a region is not the problem. This tower and that parliament sim somebody has created time ago, and if somebody would like to rework the parliament sim I'm sure better quality content would be highly appreciated.
  • josjoha
    It seems you might think the idea is worth some effort ? There would first need to be some agreement, especially with the grid administrators and so on.

    A location to discuss the matter in-world and elsewhere should be easy to find. Once a region is set up for it, that would be an obvious in-world location, or otherwise the metro tower ? A group for public land maintenance could be started, and the project(s) discussed.

    As I wrote above, I already had plugged in my drawing tablet to start working on it (to draw a ground map). If it is wanted I can make some design, a ground map and where what kind of things could be located (I could put that in the ground texture even). What list of locations would we want ? What overall concept should be followed ?

    One concept (that is perhaps a bit big): create a reflection of Earth with the zones North (ice/winter), central Europe (Germany of course), Southern Europe and tropical / desert (4 zones). I suppose something like this takes multiple 4x4 vars ? You need at least 700x700 meter per zone or so ? If this concept is too big, one could decide to for now only choose the northern/central Europe zone, and make it so that it can always later be extended north/south or even east/west.

    Multiple islands make sailing / airplanes more interesting.

    Within any of those ideas, could be located several hamlets with these rent parcel / starter houses. Each hamlet could be done in a particular style.

    Maybe someone will enjoy making a harbor, someone else could make an airfield or two, a third some houses in a village and another some nature ? I don't know how hard people or I will be able / willing to work on it. When we see the SL public lands, quality of it is not super by todays standards either, so it should not be too extremely much work to get to that level ? Maybe it is fun to work on it ? Even if nobody ever ends up renting a parcel, the worst we might get away with is some more work on metro central (public) regions, perhaps a snug place for the help island.

    Should it be a 4x4 var sim ? I prefer them personally at least.
  • josjoha
     Member edited August 2019
    P.S. (again)
    I happen to be chatting to someone in OSgrid now (who may want to help a bit too maybe) who has very large lands as big as a Continent really, and he started offering free rent parcels. At first he got one, and then word of mouth resulted in six others without needing to advertise. I think the argument stands that it is too much to go from nothing to a whole region, and a lot of people may never ever want a full region for their casual VR existence. It also seems to me that although those where on private sims, the fact that the entire land area was so enormous gives a greater sense of it being open / public and more stable.
  • Copper Tomsen
    Copper Tomsen
     Member edited August 2019
    Träumereien für mich.
    Grund. 1. Sl ist nicht OS und von daher niemals zu vergleichen mit uns.
    2.: hypergrid biz ist eine Seite die andre Meinungen Tod macht (was Lena auch damals erfahren mußte als ihr post einfach gelöscht wurde als sie z.b. über Sacrarium schrieb)
    Kann also niemals als Beispiel oder gar Richtlinie für irgendwas herangezogen werden.
    3. Metro ist schmaler, übersichtlicher und besser geworden! Vergleiche mit andern wird daher immer hinken, bzw. ist unlogisch.
    sachen wie: Sims die einen Monat mal nicht on sind zu löschen, ist mehr als Kontraproduktiv ( auch wenns für ITler im ersten Moment logisch erscheint).
    Beispiel: Meine kleine rp sim wird nur gebraucht wenn für RP nötig)
    Ich hoffe Admins werden nie,mals Maretas Vorschlag übernehmen, die von der Karte zu putzen; das wäre ein Einschnitt in das freie Metro!
    Josjoa hier vesteht M.E.  nicht (mehr) was Metro ist: Ein unabhängiges Grid das dergleichen sucht.
    HG biz ist jedenfalls dafür kein Maßstab, genauso wenig wie SL!
    Diese Moles in sl waren / sind bezahlte Leute in SL, nachdem die tolle Sache Mentoren gelöscht wurden von dem ego Grid SL in 2010 (ich war einer davon).
    Also das zu vergleichen geht hier auch nicht.
    Wenn man Helper in Metro will, als welcome etc, wid das Momentan hier nicht funzen. Das ist illusorisch; hier gibts keine Leuts dafür.
    Einzig denkbar wäre ein Tutorial, wie auch immer gestaltet, mit TP auf eine Sim von Metro start .
    (Wir sind ein deutsches Grid. daher schreib ich auch in deutsch!)
    Weiter denke ich das Metro stark genug ist keine Leute von außerhalb zu brauchen..OSG? lol.. Metro ist Kompentent genug!
  • josjoha
     Member edited August 2019
    Hello Copper,

    Thank for your reply (points below). Since I was awake most of the night (having worked too hard on too much land with the comparatively small firestorm land tools), I had lots of hours to puzzle on the implementation question ...

    organization: For the grid admins to decide what works best ? I had thought of that "we" make a new avatar for this purpose, so that we can isolate the inventory of the public works project, and if need be transfer ownership ? A group can be made, a hangout can be build in the new sim.

    land concept: A series of quite large islands to make sailing / flying interesting, with small hamlets in different styles. The overall map draws inspiration from "the real world", with colder to the north and hotter to the south. The overall north/south distance being 16 sims large.

    Initial Implementation: Although the concept is ambitious enough to provide inspiration for a dozens of kilometers of land, it is best to start small but already have it be functional. Therefore start with the real world inspired places around Germany, since Metro is a German grid.

    land specifics: (Assuming a 4x4 standard region size.) One largest island (North/eastern part) resembles Germany, with the in the north something inspired by (the styles off, the country side, overall land shape etc) the area around Lübeck. The Metro tower could be part of a mountain in the south, to deal with its very large and difficult shape. The mountain would be even taller than the tower and sit on one side of the metro tower, with the metro tower being in a spot that seems as if it is drilled out of that mountain, and the metro tower being easily accessible from ground level on the other side. The metro-grid says to want to be democratic, hence it fits to huddle it toward the Swiss (which is on a whole other level of democracy than the rest of the world). The mountains in the south are inspired by the Alps, the south slopes of them are inspired by southern France and Italy (vacation destinations). Between the Alps and Lübeck is the black forest, and half way through possibly a large harbor (Lübeck being another harbor hamlet). If room allows the Brocken mountain can be in the middle too (Harz).

    A second Island south/west could be inspired by Spain/France. A third island north/west being inspired by Whales (the South England epic coast line), or perhaps Scotland/Ireland, or all.

    Area styles: Because of the Metro tower, the south of the Germany island would be steam-punk on the north slopes of the Alps. Lübeck is interesting because it was a great center of trade/culture in the middle ages for all of Northern Europe (the Hanze). Hence this area could be older styles, rural. Other area styles yet to be determined.

    Locations: The help-island/area could be a school in one of the hamlets, including open air space to the degree needed. There should be a minimum of everything needed: airfields, harbors with rezzable boats, sand boxes, etc.

    Renters:  Somehow it needs to be dealt with that people build very ugly stuff, because they are new. One way to do that is to isolate each parcel with enough nature to obscure the view. Another is to give renters a menu of houses to choose from, and those rezz out (I have made a rezzer system like that so it should be no problem), and a maximum build height. A radar script can detect if a parcel was vacant for too long by the person renting it, after which it becomes vacant automatically. What it should cost to rent, if anything, should be decided by the grid admins ?

    Sim details: It seems usually best to me to put the water surface at 40 meter, because then you have enough to do some fun under water too ? It does make connecting with other sims who do not do that harder. I only ever worked on 4x4 vars, but I guess we can work something out whatever works best.

    Just getting on with it: For some initial sketching until things are decided, I have a 4x4 sandbox var ("Distribution"), which is specifically for playing with whole OARs. I'm perfectly willing to develop a map there with other people, and give the OAR to the admins when the time is right. Maybe that is the best way to do it in terms of cost, however it makes it less public / open / general (because I would own it for starters, which incidentally is precisely the problem we try to avoid here).

    Copper, your points:

    1. Second life is something to compare any other grid to, because it is the same system. This is not about LL/SL their weirdness and quirkiness, but about something as basic as people having a home. People have had two legs since forever, and lived in some sort of house since ages, all over the world. All virtual worlds therefore have houses content. We see that people in SL probably for the most part rent small parcels, not whole sims, and many rent skyboxes which is merely the inside of a house. If we only offer Regions, it is likely too much for a lot of people. 

    2./3. If "we" don't listen to ideas and criticism that can lead to ideas for whatever improvement, I think it would not be a smart thing to work like that. You get stuck in repeating the same thing and blaming the world. We could offer what people seem to want/need, and see how that goes. Maybe it fails, at least we tried. Removing old content in a parcel in above system after a month might be a little quick, but if other people want that space than maybe it is the thing to do. If we have enough parcels and open space, disused places can stay on for longer. This is not about removing your sim Copper ! This is merely about how to keep this special public space thing tidy and pretty.

    Sorry for writing English, but I do not know German well enough to write all this quickly enough. If I moved my sims to OSgrid, and then came to Metro-grid to do something here again, would that be bad ? It is not like I try to mobilize the OSgrid admins to do an experiment here. Lots of people connect sims in OSgrid, from all over the world. I also think that if we could do something interesting here, other grids might also want to copy the idea of public lands with easy smaller starter / simplicity parcels, and the whole opensim world might get more people, which is good for everyone (except SL haha).
  • Mareta Dagostino
    Mareta Dagostino
     Member edited August 2019
    Hi Copper,

    nice but ambitious ideas you have. I would not use the European land map because most residents in SL mainlands want access to public water and streets. Especially seaside is rare in a massive continent, I fear we would have lots of additional empty space in most parts of such a continent. I would prefer something like Nautilus in SL because of strategic thinking. Also in such a shape it would be easier to start with maybe four regions and evolve step by step, only having in mind the big picture. Because - honestly - I think your plan of tonight could be over ambitious. You said you want high quality content on the regions, not only terraforming result with large footprint mostly empty. Also I think before starting with real work, a community should be set up. And yes, actually an answer of admins is missing too if you think about such a big public project on donated servers.

    (For that reason I brought up the reserved coordinates around *Centerworld*, they are 256m plots though with 20m water level but reserved anyway, no privately connected region would be disturbed and one could replace the water region by region with landscape.)

    If you think about a big continent where other and stricter rules apply as in the rest of Metropolis, that would appear in some actually empty space of the map. So @Copper it should and would not conflict with existing regions. In a coordinate space of more than 10000x10000 surely one can find non-conflicting space for such an experiment. Also the water level should not conflict because that would appear somewhere out of sight for residents who wouldn't connect voluntarily.

    But please be prepared not to become obsessed with this project, you would need a real and organized team not only 2-3 enthusiasts to build up such dimensions with unique content (and not some discharged inventories of well-known freebies). And even if I write here so much text, I will not be part of that team: I'm not an efficient content creator and have enough work for years with my two regions, which are work in progress forever. I could move them though if that team would decide that my quality is high enough and they would accept self-connected servers within that continent.

    Kind regards, Mareta

    EDIT: You wrote "I had thought of that 'we' make a new avatar for this purpose", do you think about a shared account used by several RL persons? I'm not in a relevant role here but would dislike that. Maybe I have misunderstood and you mean something like a corporate clothing?
  • josjoha
     Member edited August 2019
    Hello Mareta,

    First I would suggest that we somehow try to find what our designs have in common, and then try to work them into each other. How can Nautilus be worked into the islands I proposed (etc).

    It seems I may not have been clear enough, because I am not suggesting to use the European land map or make such large continents as SL has, and was still wondering If the north of the Germany island should be separated by water from the south, creating more interesting seas and coastlines as you mention. The idea is only to inspire certain areas in the sim, on areas that exist in real life. Spain is obviously not an island separate from Germany, yet it would be on this map as I above proposed it.

    Hence we are in agreement in the sense that there would be a lot of coast and overall it could (start out as) an archipelligo of islands, but not necessarily small islands like one island per house (which is boring). An island of several hundred meter is not that much in my opinion, but that is something to discuss I guess. With enough of an odd shape there is a lot of coastline. You can fit dozens of water side houses on such an island.

    Maybe my plan seems ambitious, but when you look at what it means it is quite simple. You end up with 3 or 4 main islands, with areas having a certain real-world inspired look. It seems to me it is a handy way to get some inspiration for the build. Pull up some pictures of those areas and get going.

    I guess you are right that it could be as simple as add a few regions next to center-world and go from there. Then the current center world region does not have to be changed for a new larger sim. That would mean it would all be standard regions (perhaps better for stability because it is the standard ?), and the metro tower would be sort of standing by itself and you could sail to it for example. I don't know enough about opensim to know if having 16 standard regions is easier to run than one 4x4 var. A larger var region might be better for sailing/flying.

    With the avatar I was merely thinking of making your own separate avi but only for your own use, not shared use. Maybe that will make it easier to isolate the objects, or indeed to give the av to someone else if one wanted to stop with the project, or exchange IARs relevant to "public works" without bothering with the massive amount of other stuff. Just an idea.

    Mareta, you are right that it is a lot of work, and I too have work for years on my own regions. When I seem to be eager to get into it, developing the idea to a worked out concept and maybe with a land map (the overall structure), is what I can do quite quickly for now, but what happens after I don't know. I build basically two 4x4 var regions, one is simple the other complex, which takes me years. For that reason it could be a low intensity project for now, which lives on my northern most 4x4 var, until it maybe dies a silent death by neglect, or perhaps it becomes something fun and people like to get in on it. A better option might be if the admins make a grid owned 4x4 var available, which - correct me if I'm wrong - is possible to cut up into a bunch of standard regions AORs as needed, to for example huddle it around the center world sim or however that might be done if it is getting near something usable (who knows maybe in a year or two ;-).

    In terms of "high quality content", it seems to me that a grid owes it to itself to have top level public welcoming and starter regions. What might work is to try to determine what the qualities are of people who want to work on it, and try to make them do that. In some cases it could hurt if someone wants to help but they are just not good enough at it. How to objectively determine this ? Maybe we would need a separate panel of quality control. Then again how difficult is it to see the difference between your basic nooby 2005 prim build house from standard textures with some floating box prim trees around it, compared to the best mesh cottages and finely crafted plants, hedges and road works, environmental sounds, moving animals, shaded mesh furniture with sits that work, and so on. Any style exists in crude and fine implementation. I think overall it should be well above average, but that is just my opinion. At the end we could ask some great artists to do the finishing touches if needed.

    I'm sorry too for writing a lot, which I always tend to do about anything, but considering it being so much work this writing is comparatively nothing. Best make a good start, well thought out from the beginning. With that it should be enough said, maybe I'll draw a ground map and do some things already. Admins ?

    P.S. The project can be cut up into a large amount of small projects, like "a road from here to there" or "find a nice cottage in style X without copyright issues," "develop a pier with a rezzed boat". Then it may become easier for everyone to contribute something that is doable in like a few hours. Having an overall structure makes this fairly easy, because you know from the start where everything will go. People could build roads before a hamlet is finished, and a sign to the school before there is one, and thereby do what they like better.

    We could have "work related" visits to the best sims in opensim, and wonder how we can get that good ourselves. Since group events are always so difficult, every visit could be worked into an LM travel guide for new public worksmen to go there later, with a bunch of remarks of how great something is and how it is perhaps done. Maybe we pick up a few good items for our own sim along the way. Be cool if we could chat with the owner there (which is even harder to organize I'm sure).
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